Mr. Computer -- The IRS cracking down on businesses is the tough part of the law. Many companies in IT had a lot of people working for them as ICs when there was no difference between what they were doing and what employees were doing. The onus is on the employer not employee/IC. That is why I suspect there is something going on at Trendsource that does not really involve their shoppers and someone gave them some very bad advice if they told them to have all of their shoppers have EINs will protect them from IC concerns. Furthermore, I don't think they can legally withhold payment because you don't have an EIN instead of an SSN. There are a lot of ethical flags flying on the flagpole for me.

LisaStL -- I have never paid a fee for PayPal other than for currency conversion. I think I may have a business account which I set up for another business and use the same account for all of my businesses.

Shedmyskin - Please post again and give us that link in your previous post. That was interesting and I want to read more. That's a generous amount a disabled person can earn before benefits are affected. Who knew? Not me. It would take a large amount of hustle for a disabled person to make over $1,000 a month doing this.

Sorry you lost your post. This thread had a tiff early on and has been kind of snarky and accusatory in a place or two already, so I was surprised your post was deleted, and so quickly, too. I didn't go back and look over the whole thread, but now I'm wondering if the sheep to the slaughter and disrepecting the disabled post is still in there. I'll have to take a look, but gotta run right now. Have some work this afternoon and I would really hate to tell the MSC I didn't make it because I got hung up on the forum.

I hope you can knock off the edges and repost. That was some good information and it needs to be out there. Or rather, on here.

avitoots, I agree. I plan to keep digging onto this...
Its been 40 years since I was first required to wear a flak vest.
I may need to dig it back out of the attic...

I feel this has taken on a life of its own, no one really knows the outcome or reason behind TS needing this. I was on Secret Shopper and to apply, they now have either SS# or EIN#, seems to be the wave of the future. I have a business license, and don't make much $$ doing this. I also need to add since the poster so annoyed with me, saying I am disrespectful to the disabled, should know what a ton of s___ that speculation was. I am on my way to being disabled, as many will be if they aren't now. Saying that discredits him, just write the facts, don't humiliate posters on a public form, and when you do, own it. I don't give a damn who gets one or who doesn't, but knowing the facts is a good thing. Katherine, I would listen to your accountant, and do what is best for you and your situation.
katherineevans Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes I have one, They walked me through the
> questions and just gave it to me. I was told at
> the bank to have a business account I would need
> the EIN. I was also told I would need it when
> filing my taxes. Now I find folks here saying you
> don't need one. I am so confused...

Irene -- Um . . . if you re-read what Katherine wrote, it was the bank, not an accountant, who told her she needed an EIN for a business account and, quite frankly, I wouldn't trust anything a bank told me since their whole interest is increasing their bottom line. If she wants to open a second account for her shopping income, she can do so just using her SSN and, by the way, she should watch for account opening shops and do it then. Might as well get paid to do so. As far as having a business license for shopping, it is possible that some jurisdictions require that which would probably make an EIN necessary. Most probably don't so, as posted above, most shoppers would not fall under the requirements laid out by the IRS for an EIN.

Well seems that if you post a lot on the forums you can attack people personally. But if you are a first time poster who got sick of reading the misinformation its not ok. As for the link here it is

[www.avvo.com]

Again I will state the reason you will start seeing mystery shopping companies going over to a EIN is because they will need to distinguish between their employees (those that work for them in office) and the IC's they pay to do work for them. You can thank companies like Microsoft for this as they (and others that followed) would hire "Independent Contractors" and work them 40 hours just like a regular job to avoid paying benefits. Unfortunately the government caught wind of this and has cracked down on this practice and forced the hand of companies that employee IC's on a legit bases.

This is taken directly from the IRS website at [www.irs.gov]


Select the Scenario that Applies to You:

I am an independent contractor or in business for myself
If you are a business owner or contractor who provides services to other businesses, then you are generally considered self-employed. For more information on your tax obligations if you are self-employed (an independent contractor), see our Self-Employed Tax Center.
I hire or contract with individuals to provide services to my business
If you are a business owner hiring or contracting with other individuals to provide services, you must determine whether the individuals providing services are employees or independent contractors. Follow the rest of this page to find out more about this topic and what your responsibilities are.

Furthermore:

Form W-9

If you’ve made the determination that the person you’re paying is an independent contractor, the first step is to have the contractor complete Form W-9 (PDF), Request for Taxpayer Identification Number and Certification. This form can be used to request the correct name and Taxpayer Identification Number, or TIN, of the worker. A TIN may be either a Social Security Number (SSN), or an Employer Identification Number (EIN). The W-9 (PDF) should be kept in your files for four years for future reference in case of any questions from the worker or the IRS.

Well, shedmyskin, it is interesting that you accuse others of spreading misinformation while you do it yourself. Requiring ICs to have EINs WILL NOT prevent MSCs from being accused of miscategorizing people since whether someone has an EIN has nothing to do with categorizing workers. So, that part of your argument is misinformation. The IRS has, I think, a three-prong test to determine whether someone is an employee or IC which involves control over hours, location and how someone does their job. That is a burden that the MSCs have to bear, not the shoppers.

Also, most MSC IC contracts specifically prohibit shoppers from hiring others to do the shops. So, just because you are self-employed or working as an IC DOES NOT mean you need to get an EIN. You can conduct your business using your SSN.

I am going to re-post the questions the IRS has on its website that help people determine whether they need to get an EIN. None of the questions apply to mystery shoppers.

I did a wee bit of research on the IRS website and, from what I can tell, we do not need an EIN to be a shopper which goes back to my questioning of why Trendsource (we can mention company names as long as we don't identify their clients). So, here's the questions asked when trying to decide whether you need an EIN:

Definition of an EIN: "An Employer Identification Number (EIN) is also known as a Federal Tax Identification Number, and is used to identify a business entity."

Do you have employees?
YES NO

Do you operate your business as a corporation or a partnership?
YES NO

Do you file any of these tax returns: Employment, Excise, or Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms?
YES NO

Do you withhold taxes on income, other than wages, paid to a non-resident alien?
YES NO

Do you have a Keogh plan?
YES NO

Are you involved with any of the following types of organizations?

Trusts, except certain grantor-owned revocable trusts, IRAs, Exempt Organization Business Income Tax Returns
Estates
Real estate mortgage investment conduits
Non-profit organizations
Farmers' cooperatives
Plan administrators

None of the above questions apply to mystery shopping. There is the information. So, if you can answer yes to any of the above questions, then you need to get an EIN. If you answer no to all of those questions, you DO NOT need to get an EIN and can use your SSN for your business.

Heres one for you folks!!! Ran a DNS/ip Trace. Shed my skin is Trendsource. Ain't that a hoot.

Crikey. "Shed my skin" is a great name for someone selling snake oil.

Then it's rather apropos, isn't it.

Am I wrong or does this argument from Shed (A.K.A. TS, apparently) seem to be about the W-9, which specifically states, "A TIN may be either a Social Security Number (SSN), or an Employer Identification Number (EIN)"?

The evidence posted from the IRS specifically states that it doesn't make a difference. This is what avitoots has been saying all along....I know.

If they are so interested in shopper being classified correctly, why aren't they asking for a W-9 and/or proof that their shoppers are working as an IC for other companies (another common test to establish IC status)?

Assuming that I have the right to hurl an insult since I'm a regular poster; This all seems rather senseless and desperate. You don't pay your shoppers nearly enough to even be a blip on the radar of the IRS! If you loose the IC classification, it will merely a side-effect of administration going after people with a much larger tax burden and the EIN antics will not make a bit of difference IMHO.

SteveSoCal -- I will say this ONE MORE TIME, whether you use your SSN or an EIN does not matter when classifying someone working for a company. Therefore, whether you get a W2 or a W9 doesn't matter. The test that the IRS uses to determine that has nothing to do with the tax number used. If you're misclassified and they're giving you a W-9 and you should be classified as an employee having taxes taken out and being given a W-2, they will be in big trouble.

Ah, so, I guess accusing him of providing misinformation was right on. Guess we should ask shedmyskin to come clean and tell us what's really going on and whether they're being audited by the government for employee misclassification.

Steve. Have you looked at the new California Law? Both you and Trendsorce are in that state. What do you think is going on...

ROFL!!!!!! It was pretty obvious shedmyskin didn't read the forum much - he registered at 11:06 and posted his first EIN post at 11:27. I guess the poster wasn't very proud of his post since he didn't sign it or identify himself as TrendSource. As Steve said, senseless and desperate. And it gives the forum a big laugh....what a joke....

Here is the info for verification -

12.173.8.98



IP Information - 12.173.8.98

IP address: 12.173.8.98
Reverse DNS: mail.trendsource.com.
Reverse DNS authenticity: [Verified]
ASN: 7018
ASN Name: ATT-INTERNET4
IP range connectivity: 8
Registrar (per ASN): ARIN
Country (per IP registrar): US [United States]
Country Currency: USD [United States Dollars]
Country IP Range: 12.0.0.0 to 13.255.255.255
Country fraud profile: Normal
City (per outside source): San Diego, California
Country (per outside source): US [United States]
Private (internal) IP? No
IP address registrar: whois.arin.net
Known Proxy? No
Link for WHOIS: 12.173.8.98

Now that he's been outed, wonder if he'll post again.

Hmmm. If the Board Owner checks in soon he may noy be able to do so.
BUWAHAHAHAHAHA!

avitoots Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SteveSoCal -- I will say this ONE MORE TIME,
> whether you use your SSN or an EIN does not matter
> when classifying someone working for a company.

Avitoots, are you under the impression that I was disagreeing with you on this? I didn't think I said anything to that affect, and was in fact agreeing with you. You may have misunderstood my post. I get it...I'm just wondering why TS doesn't.


Mr. C; I've been reading a ton about the new laws in CA and am still digesting it. It seems to be really geared more at the penalties applied to companies that misclassify employees, and I have not seen anything whatsoever that hints at EINs being a requirement for IC classification.

If I was an MSC, I would paying more attention to the instruction sets and requirements I put on shoppers, rather than the paperwork and accounting. ICs are generally given more freedom than the average shopper in order to do their job. If you brought someone in, gave them a list of standards that the corporate office wanted applied and asked for a report on their experience with it by a certain deadline, that would be closer to an IC.

MS instructions are far to controlling IMHO and that's where the employee classification may kick in. Many also require you to use proprietary software, which may be another issue. Don't get me started on the MSC that auto-assigns shops....

Thank you for your response. There is an interesting thread on another board that may explain the push for this EIN reqistry requirenment.

Are you folks ready for this?

My understanding of the new requirement is that MSC's using Shoppers without an EIN will have to Pay Minimum Wage!

This could possibly be whats really behind this mess. I.M.H.O.

SteveSoCal -- You keep pushing the necessity of an EIN which has nothing to do with how someone is classified and it leads me to believe that is a concept you may not be able to or want to comprehend. If there are changes in California, that will ONLY apply to State taxes and have nothing to do with federal taxes. In other words, unless you're living and working in California, those changes will not apply. If that is the source of Trendforce's requirement for an EIN then they are misapplying the requirement.

avitoots Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SteveSoCal -- You keep pushing the necessity of an
> EIN which has nothing to do with how someone is
> classified and it leads me to believe that is a
> concept you may not be able to or want to
> comprehend. If there are changes in California,
> that will ONLY apply to State taxes and have
> nothing to do with federal taxes. In other words,
> unless you're living and working in California,
> those changes will not apply. If that is the
> source of Trendforce's requirement for an EIN then
> they are misapplying the requirement.


Avitoots, I have no idea what you talking about. I have NEVER stated that an EIN is necessary or that it would affect an IC classification. I think you are the the one misunderstanding me.

Can you point out a post of mine where I claimed an EIN was necessary?

You are verging on being insulting at this point, so next time you feel like schooling me, read my posts a bit closer. You are out of line.

Well, Steve, I am not out of line and I have read your posts. Maybe you should learn how to right coherently. Here's a statement you made:

"If they are so interested in shopper being classified correctly, why aren't they asking for a W-9 and/or proof that their shoppers are working as an IC for other companies (another common test to establish IC status)?"

As I stated before, asking for a W-9 will not prove that a shopper or anyone has been properly classified as an IC.

I stand by my statement that you don't need to get an EIN to be a shopper and whether you use an EIN or SSN, are issued a W9 or W2 are not the tests the IRS uses to determine whether someone is an IC. You're the one that made thar an issue, not me.

mrcomputer101 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thank you for your response. There is an
> interesting thread on another board that may
> explain the push for this EIN reqistry
> requirenment.
>
> Are you folks ready for this?
>
> My understanding of the new requirement is that
> MSC's using Shoppers without an EIN will have to
> Pay Minimum Wage!
>
> This could possibly be whats really behind this
> mess. I.M.H.O.


I'm not debating that some companies may feel this is an issue...they may, but as an employee shopper for some MSCs, I can tell you that minimum wage argument is BS. All they have to do is classify an assignment as a 10 or 20 minute job and then pay you accordingly. Unless you turn in a time card and are an employee, the wage situation cannot be controlled that closely.

As someone who has also been an employee MSer in CA, I can tell you that a fair wage is $12 per hour, which is well above minimum wage. I was paid the entire time I was on assignments, and for the reporting. It was still a crappy job, even at $12 per hour.

The arguments being presented by TS and their puppets on the other board are ridiculous, IMHO. There are models in place for companies to switch to if employee status is called for, and MSing will evolve and continue in one way or another. It's not the doom and gloom situation being predicted....at least for shoppers.

avitoots Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well, Steve, I am not out of line and I have read
> your posts. Maybe you should learn how to right
> coherently. Here's a statement you made:
>
> "If they are so interested in shopper being
> classified correctly, why aren't they asking for a
> W-9 and/or proof that their shoppers are working
> as an IC for other companies (another common test
> to establish IC status)?"
>
> As I stated before, asking for a W-9 will not
> prove that a shopper or anyone has been properly
> classified as an IC.
>
> I stand by my statement that you don't need to get
> an EIN to be a shopper and whether you use an EIN
> or SSN, are issued a W9 or W2 are not the tests
> the IRS uses to determine whether someone is an
> IC. You're the one that made thar an issue, not
> me.


I'm done arguing with you. Misunderstand me all you want. I feel pretty confident that my posts are coherent.

There's nothing in that quote of mine that claims I believe the W-9 or EIN number would quality anyone as an IC. I'm simply wondering why Trendsource was making an issue about W-9's and then not asking for them.

If you have a particular issue with me, feel free to send me a PM about it. Fabricating reasons to argue with me just seems pointless.

Honey, you fabricated the issue and, until this last post, said nothing about wondering about why Trendsource was doing anything. You were just posting stuff that had nothing to do with the explanations that I was giving. I really don't have an issue with you personally, just have an issue with anyone giving misleading information. Case closed.

As for the MSCs having to pay minimum wage, that is part of the snake oil that alarmists are selling to the MSCs to get them to unite against enforcement of current laws about misclassifying employees as ICs. Then the MSCs pass this BS along to us, warning that IF they have to pay us minimum wage as employees, they will either go out of business or use only a select few shoppers, ending the MS careers of 99% of us, since the overhead costs of having employees (instead of ICs) are prohibitively igh. This all smacks of a "full employment act for lawyers and lobbyists" to me.

Steve and avitoots, it looks to many of us as if you are both actually on the same side of the issue, so please share some cookies and decaf.

Edited because I could not type due to lack of caffine this AM.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/31/2012 09:51PM by walesmaven.

Since the beginning I've been saying that it seems to be the companies with ridiculous requirements and truly low pay are wanting to jump on this bandwagon. It's how they will justify paying someone $1.50 for an hour's worth of work. We don't get this bull crap from companies who pay fairly.

It's strange that two of the lowest paying companies in the industry, Market Force and Corporate Research, don't seem to be running scared. As bad as CORI fees are before increases what they don't have are minimum on-site requirements. But then again CORI and MF have not attempted to institute bidding on shops with the "winner" being the person who will do it for the least amount of money.

They have asked for a W-9 along with your EIN, and everything goes into effect June 13th. I don't need any feedback, thanks.

I told TS that it would increase my costs (local taxes). They didn't have anything I wanted to do anyway after they lost the grocery shops. No EIN for me. I had done hundreds of the grocery shops. I had forgotten what it felt like going to a store and not counting customers, open registers, interacting with 3 employees, and purchasing from the deli. At least they paid on time.

They still have the upscale grocery stores, and they are self-assign, I do miss the others, but like these better.
.tstewart14 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I told TS that it would increase my costs (local
> taxes). They didn't have anything I wanted to do
> anyway after they lost the grocery shops. No EIN
> for me. I had done hundreds of the grocery shops.
> I had forgotten what it felt like going to a store
> and not counting customers, open registers,
> interacting with 3 employees, and purchasing from
> the deli. At least they paid on time.